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pebe
Nobel Prize Winner
United Kingdom
1078 Posts |
 Posted - May 29 2011 : 04:22:55 AM
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Oh I've heard similar arguments before. It's very simple minded in my opinion...
Well, have you got a better explanation?
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Edited by - pebe on May 29 2011 04:25:07 AM |
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wasssup1990
Nobel Prize Winner
A Land Down Under
2261 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2011 : 05:23:41 AM
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Pebe, I have already talked about this briefly. I would love to sit down with you over a few days or months and talk to you about it, just like I did with my friend but I really don't have time since I really have a lot of work to do. I suppose if you really cared about a "better explanation" then you would go and look for it yourself. That's the best way to do it in my opinion. Don't get the impression that I can't give some good thinking material. Ultimately it's all up to you. All I can say is DON'T take the intelligent design route. It's a dead end road as I have talked about and you have pretty much prevented yourself getting any wiser on the matter.
This is really not encouraging:
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And I have come to the conclusion that it HAS to be by design. Who the designer was or how it was done is completely beyond my understanding and, at my late stage of life, I have no intention of trying to fathom it out.
I'm sorry but this kind of attitude isn't worth my time.
You should watch The Atheist Experience shows from Austin Texas (In the Bible belt). They put up heaps of videos on YouTube with tonnes of callers who call up with the same mindset as you. It's quite entertaining. Some good names are Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris. They are very intelligent people who provide the most coherent and powerful arguments that you'll ever find on the Internet. They make me look like an idiot in comparison... well not really. 
I hope you find some better explanations because I certainly can't do it in a short time frame from my experience. It took my friend about 2 years worth of heated debates and discussions between us for him to "see the light", if you get my drift. |
When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity.
When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion. |
Edited by - wasssup1990 on May 29 2011 05:27:57 AM |
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Sicode
Apprentice
67 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2011 : 06:34:02 AM
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The 'design' is where the confusion lies, wassssup. It looks something has really been designed. Who is the designer? Who designed the designer? The question does not end, and the road is as wide as the East from West. A mortal mind, maybe, can not answer that. You could say who is the immortal. It is argued that God made man in His image. Do you realise we create robots and similar things to help us in our work. They are controlled by the program written for them. These robots are designed by human designers. In their working, they behave like humans - working out of the in-built program in them made by man, the designer. The robot could ask, if intelligent, who designed me? If man is mortal, then there could be the immortal.
Pebe, you are in some of the things you said. The problem is, both with the existence of God and sciences, the snake is too long. The tail and the body are seen. Where is the head of the snake? This just the problem. Yet it is so strange that up to 60 percent of the world population are religious. In the 40 some still hold both science and religion, etc.
Wassssup, someone said, a scientist, a biologist, the science books are always edited and re-edited, amendments, disagreements, this and that. He said he was sad that the Bible, or most other beliefs written have known no 2nd edition. |
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pebe
Nobel Prize Winner
United Kingdom
1078 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2011 : 07:17:12 AM
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Pebe, I have already talked about this briefly. I would love to sit down with you over a few days or months and talk to you about it, just like I did with my friend but I really don't have time since I really have a lot of work to do. I suppose if you really cared about a "better explanation" then you would go and look for it yourself. That's the best way to do it in my opinion. Don't get the impression that I can't give some good thinking material. Ultimately it's all up to you. All I can say is DON'T take the intelligent design route. It's a dead end road as I have talked about and you have pretty much prevented yourself getting any wiser on the matter.
Wasssup, I feel your attitude is now a little patronising. In my long life (and I have grandchildren older than you) don’t you think I have already searched long and hard for answers? Don’t you think I have already discussed these matters at great length with people from both sides of the fence before reaching the conclusion I did?
All I asked for was a better explanation of the origin for the behaviour of my nesting birds – I did not ask for a load of waffle. But all you give me is a cop-out and ask me to ignore ‘intelligent design’. Is it that you won’t give me an explanation, or that you don’t have one?
I expected something better, but I’ll leave you to get on with your work.
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wasssup1990
Nobel Prize Winner
A Land Down Under
2261 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2011 : 08:18:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sicode
The 'design' is where the confusion lies, wassssup. It looks something has really been designed. Who is the designer? Who designed the designer? The question does not end, and the road is as wide as the East from West. A mortal mind, maybe, can not answer that. You could say who is the immortal. It is argued that God made man in His image. Do you realise we create robots and similar things to help us in our work. They are controlled by the program written for them. These robots are designed by human designers. In their working, they behave like humans - working out of the in-built program in them made by man, the designer. The robot could ask, if intelligent, who designed me? If man is mortal, then there could be the immortal.
Pebe, you are in some of the things you said. The problem is, both with the existence of God and sciences, the snake is too long. The tail and the body are seen. Where is the head of the snake? This just the problem. Yet it is so strange that up to 60 percent of the world population are religious. In the 40 some still hold both science and religion, etc.
Wassssup, someone said, a scientist, a biologist, the science books are always edited and re-edited, amendments, disagreements, this and that. He said he was sad that the Bible, or most other beliefs written have known no 2nd edition.
You're missing the point Sicode and please don't ask me why because you're giving me a headache. I'm sorry if I seem a little grumpy.
quote:
Originally posted by Pebe
Wasssup, I feel your attitude is now a little patronising. In my long life (and I have grandchildren older than you) don’t you think I have already searched long and hard for answers? Don’t you think I have already discussed these matters at great length with people from both sides of the fence before reaching the conclusion I did?
All I asked for was a better explanation of the origin for the behaviour of my nesting birds – I did not ask for a load of waffle. But all you give me is a cop-out and ask me to ignore ‘intelligent design’. Is it that you won’t give me an explanation, or that you don’t have one?
Pebe, I had thought that you might think I was being a little patronising. I would not want to be patronising, just to be clear. Patronising you would not be very constructive on either of us.
"Don’t you think I have already discussed these matters at great length with people from both sides of the fence before reaching the conclusion I did?"
Absolutely! Does that mean your conclusion is the only conclusion? Why can't I put forward what I think? I'm saying your intelligent design idea is a dead end and you've even personally acknowledged that because you can't figure it out! So why not look for an alternate route which might actually get you somewhere? I don't expect you to know everything even in your old age. Even if you've discussed these matters with people before, don't stop trying, because I wouldn't. It sounds like you have already thrown in the towel though. I'm just trying to encourage you to never stop looking for answers, for what it's worth. I can't be any clearer than that. If I was 60 years old I would still listen to a 21 year old because there's always going to be someone who knows more than me or is more intelligent than me on certain matters.
"All I asked for was a better explanation of the origin for the behaviour of my nesting birds – I did not ask for a load of waffle. But all you give me is a cop-out and ask me to ignore ‘intelligent design’. Is it that you won’t give me an explanation, or that you don’t have one?"
Why do I have to explain the origin for the behaviour of nesting birds? How much do you know about evolution? Evolution is what you need to look up, but you're probably going to say you've already done that right? Evolution has nothing to do with the intelligent design idea and yet it provides evidence of how life forms can become more complex WITHOUT an intelligent entity. A while ago I read an article which said that scientists had successfully created very basic life forms from pure chemicals. If you really want to get a hold of the article, let me know and I'll try to track it down for you.
"I expected something better, but I’ll leave you to get on with your work."
I'm serious I have got exams coming up. I must study!
You've stated your feelings Pebe, now I'll state mine. I think your last reply was a little immature, but I clarified things for because I respect you. Maybe my response seemed a little aggressive? I don't know.
I think I have been pretty fair with you guys. Just be aware that I am pretty stressed out with my upcoming exams.
If you've got anything good to add to this discussion please go ahead. You can thank Sicode for starting it. LOL! I do enjoy talking about these things but one day I'll probably learn to keep my mouth shut and only talk to people face to face. It doesn't work so well on a forum.
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When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity.
When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion. |
Edited by - wasssup1990 on May 29 2011 08:29:33 AM |
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pebe
Nobel Prize Winner
United Kingdom
1078 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2011 : 08:48:34 AM
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You've stated your feelings Pebe, now I'll state mine. I think your last reply was a little immature, but I clarified things for because I respect you. Maybe my response seemed a little aggressive? I don't know.
No, you were not a little aggresive - you were downright patronising - and I don't like it.
I'm bowing out now, so you can continue your other work in peace.
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wasssup1990
Nobel Prize Winner
A Land Down Under
2261 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2011 : 09:27:12 AM
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Well I'm sorry you feel like that Pebe. I assure you that it was not my intention to patronise you. What would be the goal in that? Now you're bowing out? I made myself very clear and concise, I was being as nice as I could be, even providing you with resources and people you could look up yourself for the explanations you desired. I simply don't have the time to write up long explanations for you. And now you're just bowing out. Well I suppose if you feel like that, then that's exactly what you should do. To me, and to the people I know you would be considered overly sensitive. I have no problem with you Pebe. Know that.
WOW! What an ending!
Unless Sicode, Audioguru or Aaron has something to add?
Now I can get back to my work.
EDIT:
Things started to go downhill after I replied to your post at the top of this page.
quote:
Oh I've heard similar arguments before. It's very simple minded in my opinion...
Well, have you got a better explanation?
Your follow-up post seemed to suggest a request for an explanation from me in regards to your birds. However when I said "Oh I've heard similar arguments before." I was not referring to your specific case for your birds. I was being more general than that, just so you know. I know nothing about the bird you were talking about. I was looking at the broader picture. It's something that I can't explain in any amount of time that I am willing to sit at this computer for and that's why I mentioned those people who you can look up. Richard Dawkins is a ethologist and evolutionary biologist. Look him up if you want to. It's not a "load of waffle". |
When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity.
When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion. |
Edited by - wasssup1990 on May 29 2011 09:52:37 AM |
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Rational
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2011 : 10:19:45 AM
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A friend linked me to this discussion because she thought I might be interested so I decided to become a member and post my 2 cents.
I'm with you wasssup1990. When you engage in these types of discussions the prospect of reaching a good conclusion is rare, especially when talking to the kinds of people you have been (no offense to them). We Athiests have a lot to deal with don't we? The discussion didn't come to a desirable ending but I think that overall you were pretty good. With no disrespect to pebe I think he lost his cool.
What's your e-mail? |
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Sicode
Apprentice
67 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2011 : 10:23:58 AM
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Wassssup, good luck in your exam. I have learnt alot from your perspectives.
Pebe, the thing about the bird, it calls for attention.
In general, it is obvious that religious matters have seriously affected the world both positively and negatively.
As people who are in sciences, could we go on in silence and allow the world to be messed up? I wish we could set, not a standard, but the standard - I mean the ones in science.
(wassssup, maybe you never understood me. My summary is that there are still religious people who can talk under few minutes and convice anyone. There are yet some others who can rationaly dispute the 'delusions' of the religious groups.
What that matters is, if a person believes a thing let him go on with it.
FC Barcelona |
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wasssup1990
Nobel Prize Winner
A Land Down Under
2261 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2011 : 11:34:35 AM
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Wow!
Okay first I'll respond to Sicode.
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Wassssup, good luck in your exam. I have learnt alot from your perspectives.
Thanks buddy. Your water heater/boiler I'll never forget. LOL!
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Pebe, the thing about the bird, it calls for attention.
I think he tied the noose, put it around his neck and jumped. I don't think he's coming back.
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In general, it is obvious that religious matters have seriously affected the world both positively and negatively.
I agree mostly on the negatives but only a little on the positives.
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As people who are in sciences, could we go on in silence and allow the world to be messed up? I wish we could set, not a standard, but the standard - I mean the ones in science.
I am trying to understand what you are saying. Could you please rephrase?
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(wassssup, maybe you never understood me. My summary is that there are still religious people who can talk under few minutes and convice anyone. There are yet some others who can rationaly dispute the 'delusions' of the religious groups.
Yeah I was hoping you were going to rephrase.
Yes I realise this but there is a difference. Religion can be easily imposed upon the ignorant and gullible and it can be sooooo convincing to the "victim" if they know next to nothing about rationality. A rational person simply provides logical reasoning which helps the person to filter out the irrational stuff they will face in life. They are allowed to think for themselves and believe what they want to. If you have a religion and depending which one it is, they can often induce fear into the person, like "If don't believe in me, you are an infidel.". The Islamic people interpret such a holy god given duty as "Go and kill as many westerners as you can.". That's one of the dangers of religion. Religion sets up a weak framework which can (depending on various factors) easily be knocked down by rationality. However this framework, once burned into someone's mind, starts to become rigid, covered in barnacles and not very flexible. This happens with time or extremely powerful indoctrination when young, like in Islam or the Jesus camps in America.
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What that matters is, if a person believes a thing let him go on with it.
Yep I have absolutely no problem if you want to believe in purple unicorns and fairies. In fact I think most Atheists think the same.
What is this "FC Barcelona"? Is it to do with soccer/football?
Now onto "Rational".
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A friend linked me to this discussion because she thought I might be interested so I decided to become a member and post my 2 cents.
I'm with you wasssup1990. When you engage in these types of discussions the prospect of reaching a good conclusion is rare, especially when talking to the kinds of people you have been (no offense to them). We Athiests have a lot to deal with don't we? The discussion didn't come to a desirable ending but I think that overall you were pretty good. With no disrespect to pebe I think he lost his cool.
What's your e-mail?
First of all, I love your username and thanks for replying.
I won't post my e-mail here because of spammers. LOL
I have sent you an e-mail via this website.
Thanks for the effort of replying. Look forward to talking with you.
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When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity.
When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion. |
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Sicode
Apprentice
67 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2011 : 12:39:20 PM
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Wassssup, it is like you got a follower. But you never called yourself an etheist.
You said I should rephrase. If Christianity, Islam, etc are mere illusional, then let the world of science save the world. So wassssup, are you an etheist?
FC Barceloca is a football club.
FC Barcelona |
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wasssup1990
Nobel Prize Winner
A Land Down Under
2261 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2011 : 9:23:15 PM
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Originally posted by Sicode
Wassssup, it is like you got a follower. But you never called yourself an etheist.
You said I should rephrase. If Christianity, Islam, etc are mere illusional, then let the world of science save the world. So wassssup, are you an etheist?
FC Barceloca is a football club.
FC Barcelona
Hey you're right! I never said I was an Atheist, but that user "Rational" was correct. My profile and my posts here give a pretty strong indication of that. I was born an atheist, raised in house where I could make up my own mind and I am still an atheist. However, just calling myself an atheist doesn't tell you much about me does it? All it tells you is that I don't believe in a god. I like to refer to myself as a rational atheist because it tells people more about me. It's one thing to just say that you're an atheist, but if you tell somebody that you are rational atheist then they are going to expect rational reasons from you of why you are an atheist. And I think that's why "Rational" (the new user) said "We Athiests have a lot to deal with don't we?". It's because most people are religious and we have to face this fact in life. I suppose that if you are in an educational institution like I am, you are probably going be around a higher percentage of people who don't have much affiliation or interest with religion, or at least just tag along with the herd.
Oops, I almost forgot to reply to this.
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You said I should rephrase. If Christianity, Islam, etc are mere illusional, then let the world of science save the world.
Well praying and hoping for miracles is hardly going to fix the world's problems. Praying has been proven to be just as useful as using "The force" in the Star Wars movies. However I think it has also been proven that praying for someone to overcome an illness has a placebo affect on them which can improve their mental state. Homoeopathy is a pseudo science which convinces people who don't know any better that the water that is being used to supposedly make them feel better has some kind of scientific merit. Science has a very good track record for saving lives and improving lives just to mention a couple.
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When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity.
When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion. |
Edited by - wasssup1990 on May 29 2011 10:27:19 PM |
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wasssup1990
Nobel Prize Winner
A Land Down Under
2261 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2011 : 04:34:00 AM
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Sicode, you need paragraphs.
Clearly you have something against Atheists after a blow-out of this magnitude. It was pretty clear that I was an Atheist, although once I said explicitly that I was one you turned on me. You also assume way too much about me. I really doubt you understand what an Atheist is apart from from what you have experienced. I could equally accuse you of only looking at things from the religious perspective. I look at things from all perspectives, I have to if I am going to make good arguments.
For the record:
I am always prepared for things like this to happen and I am well aware that things may become heated. I have been through it before face to face with people with a different conclusion however. Believe me that this kind of response is all too common, especially coming from a self declared Christian who seems pretty darn decided on what he believes.
Do I still enjoy talking on these topic? Hell yes!
Would I do it again on a forum? No! It doesn't seem to work well.
Does that mean you're finished? Yes.
Sicode, you have extinguished my desire to discuss this further with you, for now at least.
Don't worry about me, you haven't upset me, even though I really frowned upon you last reply.
Peace! 
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When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity.
When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion. |
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Rational
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2011 : 05:30:30 AM
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(in response to what you said: that these religious people have a lower place in the world).
Sicode! You are putting words in his mouth! He never said that! When you have to lie to make a point it shows that you know you have been outdone!
I couldn't believe what I was reading Sicode. You think the most awful things. He told me this topic is dead now. Good riddance! |
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Sicode
Apprentice
67 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2011 : 05:37:44 AM
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| you guys are okay now, discipler Rational? |
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DC Voltage
